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  • bharol
    01-06 11:33 PM
    I don't know of any religion which touts killing on innocent people just because they don't believe in your ideology which for me is the biggest crime against humanity.

    I know.





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  • nojoke
    01-04 01:11 PM
    I don't have a lot of time either. My wife is getting increasingly irritated; I might lose my laptop-privileges pretty soon.


    Its not because I am defending Dawood. Its just that when people talk about Dawood, the response from Pakistan has been that India is giving the list of the usual suspects, and trying to score points. [They also deny that he is in Pakistan]. So, I say, forget the past. Just focus on Bombay; get to the bottom of it, use it as an opportunity to improve relations between India and Pakistan, and move forward.


    First of all, 'I' won't be taking any action, regardless of what proof anyone provides.
    Secondly, I think Pakistan shouldn't need to be provided any proof. Pakistan should do its own investigation. And Pakistan and India should also cooperate in their investigations.
    And then Pakistan should charge those people with 'treason', and hang them.


    First of all, there is no 'we' as you mean it. This is not IndianImmigrationVoice, despite repeated and increasing evidence to the contrary.
    Secondly, this is a pretty good opportunity for Indians and Pakistanis who live in the USA to engage in a conversation about the relations between their countries. I don't think this thread is anything more than that. So, unless I start asking you to loan me a million dollars, 'trust' is a moot point.




    I think you are unable to distinguish between an individual (me for example, or you), groups of individuals (any one of the militant groups), the state and the government (Pakistan or India), the media, and the public opinion.

    I know why you wanted to avoid this dawood Ibrahim. It clearly shows unwillingness for pakistan to take actions on these terrorists. Forget Dawood, what about azad (plane hijacker). You acknowledge he is in pakistan. If not him, can you find at least one guy from pakistan out of hundreds who have committed terrorist acts on India. Please don't hide behing 'past is past'. Do you see why we(not this forum members, but people of India) feel that pakistan government or ISI has some role in these incidents.
    Note: 'we' meant not this forum members. 'You' meant people of pakistan and government.





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  • chanduv23
    03-24 02:14 PM
    I had little knowledge of immigration and of the type of people on h-1b and the type of companies who sponsor greencards when I first started perusing immigration boards. I thought many people were like me.

    Back in 2002 and 2003 when USCIS hardly approved any EB greencards; people were pretty emotional on immigration.com.

    Rajiv Khanna did a class action lawsuit against USCIS to start approving cases. He wanted some plaintiffs. Now; people on immigration.com were so emotional about their approvals and cursing USCIS all over the place. Of the thousands of people who would post; there was only something like 13 people who actually signed up to be plaintiffs. I volunteered myself to be a plaintiff but my case had only been pending for about six months at that time so I didn't think I would be a good candidate. However; only 13 people signed up compared to the thousands who were bellyaching about it. I didn't understand at that time why there was so little people who were willing to step u.

    In 2007 AILF specifically wanted people to join the lawsuit but were very clear that they wanted "clean" cases. I thought it odd that they had to specifically mention this.

    Murthy didn't want to file lawsuit because they thought it would have negative repurcussions against their existing clients in future cases.

    USCIS is pretty much the toughest agency to deal with and people who deal with them regularly know this. Time is on their side. They can deny cases and it takes years to get through the system and people have to have a legal way to stay in the country while this goes on. Because of this hardly anybody challenges them.

    I concluded that not many people have clean cases. Many people faked things on their f-1 applications; had bench time; worked in different locations then where h-1b was approved for, etc., etc.

    If you look at the different positions people take on these immigration boards; it is usually based on their own situation or people they know of and that leads them to post in a certain way.

    eb3 versus eb2
    permanent jobs versus consulting
    country quota, etc.

    The lawyers are the ones who see thousands of cases and what USCIS does and generally do not want to challenge them because it will spell bigger problems.


    btw; I am still a little suspicious of the OP. Local offices mainly do family base cases and not employment base cases. Their requests for information are pretty standard and follow the lines of family base information. They do not regularly do employment base interviews. If what the OP is saying is true then this would be a directive coming from headquarters. If that is the case then asking for "contracts" is going to be very problematic as they are going after the temporary versus permanent job.

    Texas service center has been known to call candidates/companies but it is usually for very simple information (ie., company tax return, asking verbally whether person is still in same job or verifying current address). They don't call and ask verbally for complex information like OP has stated.

    In fact just about every local USCIS office makes you sign a statement that you are not being represented by a lawyer and they "swear" you in that you are going to tell the truth under penalty of perjury.

    UN - why do you think USCIS allows

    (1) File for h1b from consulting company - when they think there is an issue
    (2) Allow labor substitution - when they think it is not good
    (3) Allow eb3 to eb2 porting - when they think it is not good
    ....
    ....
    ....

    the list can go on

    Why do you think people who are following law - not liked by USCIS?

    I am not blaming USCIS or not poking at them or your interpretation.

    I personally see that if you are not properly represented either by company or my a good Attorney - you are bound to have issues.





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  • H1B-GC
    09-26 08:50 AM
    Also,as America becomes more socialistic the power of lobbying from companies becomes even more less appealing to the Politicians. Our interests had to be protected by ourselves.

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1843168,00.html



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  • axp817
    03-26 03:38 PM
    If they continue to see in 140 filings by a company that there has been more 140's filed then people on payroll

    That is precisely why smaller companies choose to revoke the 140 when an employee leaves them while the 485 is still pending.

    It isn't always to "get back" at the employee.

    That being said, UN, I would love to hear your thoughts on this situation,

    Person leaves employer X (140 approved, more than 180 days since 485 filing, etc.) and joins employer Y on EAD (under AC21).

    Employer X revokes 140 so as to not run into any issues like you pointed out. Nothing personal against the employee, just business.

    That person after a while decides to go back to employer X (485 is still pending) under AC21.

    Does the USCIS look at that as okay to do? Or do they question the employer's intentions since the employer had earlier revoked the 140.

    Thanks in advance for sharing your opinion on this.





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  • unitednations
    08-08 04:24 PM
    Because I do not remember which address I used on the visa application, and how I translated my employer's name in home country. In China, at least those days, everyone had a residence record showing your address. We had ours at my in-law's address, while living in a new development. We might used one of those two addresses. Same thing with company names, merging, name changing etc was common.

    According to Crystal and Milind70, I am a bit relieved as my visa application was a long time ago. So I may not need to worry about it. Thanks everyone.

    check out immigration-law; breaking news. he even says not to rely on this because the procedural manual is outdated.



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  • SunnySurya
    12-22 02:41 PM
    See me standing there in the video!
    http://www.dailypioneer.com/DisplayContent.aspx?ContentID=145268&URLName=Indian-Americans-ask-UN-to-declare-Pak-a-terrorist-state
    and
    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/12/india-free-men.html
    ****
    Indian Americans ask UN to declare Pak a terrorist state

    PTI | New York


    Braving sub zero temperature and cold wind, more than 200 supporters and workers of dozens of Indian American organisation held a demonstration outside the UN, seeking the world body declare Pakistan a terrorist state.

    The demonstrators, from New York and adjoining New Jersey and Connecticut states spearheaded by Overseas Friends of BJP (OFBJP) and Indian American Intellectual Forum, demanded that the international community take action against Saudi Arabia also as groups based there had been funding the terror operations which are planned and executed from Pakistan.

    The international community, they said, need impose economic sanction against Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and force Islamabad to rein in its "infamous" Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI) which, they alleged, provides logistic and other support to terrorists.

    If Pakistan does not hand over the suspects that India has demanded, they should be tried by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity, they said.

    The demonstrators carried pictures of Jewish couple Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and wife Rivka, who were murdered by the terrorists during Mumbai attacks, with caption: "It is a crime to be a Jew?" The demonstration began with a silence observed for one minute to pay homage to the victims of Mumbai attacks and the police officers who were killed in the action.

    "Who is funding terrorism?' Saudi Arabia," "Down with Pakistan," "Pakistan, a failed state," "Stop aid to Pakistan," and "Radical Islam is the worldwide problem," were among the slogans that they shouted.

    Gaurang Vaishnav, a spokesperson of the Tristate Indians under whose banner the demonstration was organized, said that it was important that countries such as US, Britain, Israel and India come together to evolve a strategy to root out the terrorism.
    ************************



    SOLIDARITY DEMONSTRATION
    Sunday, December 21, 2008 1.00 - 3.00 P. M.
    Dag Hammarskjold Plaza (East 47th Street between 1st Ave. and 2nd Ave.) Manhattan, New York

    • HAVE THE TERRORIST ATTACKS IN MUMBAI SHAKEN YOU TO THE CORE?
    • ARE YOU SICK TO YOUR STOMACH WITH THE PUSSYFOOTING OF COWARDLY LEADERS?
    • DO YOU WANT TO PROCLAIM TO THE WORLD PAKISTAN’S INVOVLEMENT IN THESE ATTACKS?
    • DOES YOUR HEART GRIEVE FOR THE TORTURED JEWISH PEOPLE OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH?
    • DO YOU SHED TEARS FOR 200 PEOPLE MASSACRED IN COLD BLOOD AND 400 INJURED?
    • DOES THE LOSS OF SOME OF THE BRAVEST AND FINEST OF THE POLICE & NSG BOTHER YOU?
    • HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH WITH ONE AFTER ANOTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS?
    • DO YOU WANT TO HIGHLIGHT THE CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY?
    • IS “ENOUGH IS ENOUGH” FOR YOU? DO YOU WANT TO DO SOMETHING?

    If you answered YES to any one of the above, then
    Come Rain, Snow or Cold, JOIN
    TRI-STATE INDIANS on SUNDAY, DECEMBER 21 at 1:00 P. M.
    The latest Pakistan sponsored terrorist attacks have traumatized the nation and left deep scars on its psyche. Property worth millions of dollars is destroyed and the economy is affected adversely. Safety of the people and security of the nation is compromised

    Who will set the things right? WE THE CONCERNED PEOPLE...


    TRISTATE INDIANS: Supporting Organizations
    Aligarh Muslim University Engineering Alumni Association of North America
    Afghan Hindu Association, Inc
    Arsha Bodha Center
    Art of Living Foundation, USA
    Baba Balak Nath Temple, New York
    Bangladeshi Hindus of America, New York
    Bangladesh Minority Forum, USA
    Bunt Association of North America
    Ekal Vidyalaya Foundation of USA
    Federation of Indian Associations
    Friends of India Society, International
    Hindi Samiti of USA
    Hindu Center, New York
    Hindu Collective Initiative of North America (HCINA)
    Hindu Human Rights Watch
    Hindu International Council Against Defamation (HICAD)
    Hindu Right Action Force (HINDRAF)
    Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh
    Indian American Intellectual Forum
    Kanchi Kamkoti Foundation USA
    Kannada Koota
    Malyali Hindu Mandalam of North America
    Marathi Vishwa
    Nataraja Mandir (WSFC)
    Om Temple of Garden State
    Overseas Friends of BJP
    Overseas Sindhu Sabha, New York
    Panchvati Ashram, New York
    Phagwah Parade & Festival Committee
    Punjabi Darbar Religious & Cultural Society
    Sadhanalaya Dance, Inc.
    Samskrita Bharati
    Satya Narayan Mandir, Elmhurst
    Save Temples in India
    Shree Trimurthi Bhavan
    Sindhi Circle, New York
    The Caribbean Voice
    The South Asian Times
    Vishwa Hindu Parishad of America
    and many more …





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  • walking_dude
    09-30 09:17 PM
    After the bail-out bill failed in the House, Obama immediately posted a response reassuring Americans and investors that the leaders will come up with another soon.

    Contrast this with McCains partisan blaming of Obama for failure of bailout, while it was him that pulled the stunt of rushing to Washington to 'rescue' the bailout. After failing to show the leadership of his own party -with majority of Repubs voting against the bailout (a clear indication of leadership failure and ineffectiveness of McCain Presidency in passing anything through his own party!), he found it convenient to Obama.

    And it was Obama who proposed raising FDIC insurance to $250,000 to which McCain has (thankfully) chimed in.



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  • astral1977
    07-14 01:31 PM
    I guess this is the easiest way to become a Senior member. Copy paste the same "personally deduced information" in different threads. If required, create a new thread and paste it again.

    Dude, refrain from doing it.....Doesn't serve the purpose of the forum.

    Cheers.





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  • logiclife
    05-31 06:18 PM
    Tucker Carlson(Yeah, the one who was mocked by Jon Stewart and eventually was scrapped from CNN's crossfire) is next in the recruitment line for Fox News.

    For a job at Fox I think Tucker and Lou pretty much are competing. Both think that immigrants are the cause of deficit and all the economic crisis(if such a thing exists today). However, I am sure both love their houses built by illegals, the lettuce picked by illegals.

    Lou Dobbs is along the lines of Pat Buchanan. He would rather insulate the United States from the rest of the world and isolate. Against immigration, against outsourcing, against free-trade. Sort of like built a huge Igloo around the country so that the immigrants dont plunder the wealth and property that Lou has created with his bare hands.



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  • msp1976
    04-07 08:31 AM
    Members working for consulting companies can talk to their employers about this. Let us know their response.

    The employers are not gonna be worried about it..

    Many of these restrictions were passed for the L1 program some 1 year back.
    I know many people on L1 still working at client sites and no one even saying peep about it...

    This is what I heard from a friend who is a employee of a NYSE listed firm with 100+ million turnover...He and a few more on L1 raised this question to their company lawyer.. The company lawyer had many arguments to defend their position. For example 'If DOL raises a question, the company would say we have offices at multiple locations one at each client site..'There is a small army of lawyers on the company's retainer and they are not afraid at all...They told the L1 employees to calm down and leave it to them....There are many creative ways in which to structure the consulting deals and the law is worth the paper it is printed on.....

    DOL is gonna have 200 more employees for the enforcement...200 is nothing frankly...Then they have to funded every year...May be congress would not fund the additional 200. Governments never have the will to go after the businesses....So the law would look very restrictive on paper and no real impact.....I know as a fact that the L1 restriction law had absolutely no impact...

    The net scenario would really depend on what happens during the first year or so...Suppose USCIS starts denying applications and they deny 10K applications...Then 5K and more of these appeal the denial and in the end sue the USCIS ..Do not forget to remember that CIR is passed and the USCIS is loaded with the legalization workload...The appeals system and the immigration courts would get swamped with these cases...As long as the case is in the appeal or the court, they employee continues to work.....The employees would have problems with the Drivers license and like but some would stick it out...Once USCIS appeals system and courts system gets overloaded with the case load...USCIS and the US attorneys would lose their will power to try to enforce the law......
    I do not know the details of judicial review for H1 denials and I did not see anything in this law curtailing the judicial review of H1B petitions...So a lot is subjective about the law.....Many laws never have their intended impact it just goes sits in some corner...





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  • abcdgc
    12-27 09:20 AM
    Alisa, you sound like rational Pakistani who can think and judge the things by oneself. I wish % like you people increase in Pakistan.

    Marphad,

    Please don't get fooled again by this kind of sweet talk. This is the same kind of talk that Musharraf did with Americans after 9/11. But no terrorist camps were dismantled and Pakistan continues to provide safe heaven to taliban and bin ladin. Every time US or India or someone else is about to take a stern action, the most clever wing of Pakistan kicks-in, to do this sweet talk. I don't trust this sweet but filthy expression anymore. Pakistan is not even ready to prosecute LeT, JeM leaders. Just 1 guy is under "house arrest" for Mumbai attacks. If Pakistan were serious, there would be more real action on the ground. Instead, the government is trying to find reasons not to take any action. Alisa is just saying the same thing, justifying the inaction of Pakistani government. The bottom line is, Pakistan is not serious about dismantling the terrorism infrastructure. ISI continues to fund and supply arms to all terror outfits. Every terrorist attack also presents an opportunity to get ride of the bad guys. Civilized society is befooled by this sweet talk every time there is a possibility of some action. Since 9/11, the terror outfits have grown within Pakistan, even though world community thinks that Pakistan is "ally" in "war on terror". Bull Shit. India must conduct surgical strikes and should not let its guard down. The only other option is, wait for the next attack by terrorist coming from Pakistan. Next time it will someone else's brother or mother. I don't want it to be my brother or my mother. And so I demand action from Indian government RIGHT NOW. I have given piece of my mind by calling and writing emails & letters to news anchors who even remotely suggested against attacking pakistan. I see their tone change. I have also called the government and written letters demanding action, and will continue to do so till there is response to the war waged on us. And I request you and others do the same.



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  • Macaca
    12-29 07:32 PM
    Commercial Venture

    Turning SKS into a commercial venture allowed the firm to tap an unlimited pool of funds from private investors. That, in turn, let the company grow and reduce rates, Akula says.

    �Interest rates have come down over time,� he says. �Because it works, she comes back year after year,� he says of his customers.

    His autobiography, �A Fistful of Rice� (Harvard Business Review Press, 2010), provides a glimpse of the expansion drive.

    Akula, a former McKinsey & Co. consultant, studied McDonald�s Corp. and Burger King Holdings Inc. in 2005 to learn about their speedy training of unskilled workers. He devised a two-month course to train as many as 1,000 new loan officers a month.

    �I now had one goal for SKS; to grow, grow, grow as fast as we could,� he writes. �We could practice microfinance in a way that would serve more poor people than anyone had ever thought possible.�

    Akula says the commercial model of microfinance isn�t the only way.

    Returning to �Roots�

    �It�s an important complement to other forms of finance,� he says. New microfinance companies don�t spend time to build trust, Akula says. �As an industry, we need to go back to our roots,� he says.

    The Reserve Bank is scheduled to report on the industry in January. The finance ministry is planning new rules.

    Sequoia Capital�s Chadha says he�s concerned about �regulatory uncertainty� created by the state ordinance and prefers federal regulation. Nationwide rules would prevent individual states from damaging credit discipline by waiving loans, Microfinance Institutions� Prasad says.

    �It is no different than needing good regulation for stock investing or starting a manufacturing facility,� SKS investor Khosla says.

    �People, Not Profit�

    From Yunus�s perspective, it�s essential that the industry move away from seeking maximum profits and get back to focusing on the poor.

    �If not, you are not helping poor people�s lives,� he says. �You are not patient. You are not restrained. You don�t have empathy for the people. You are just using them to make money. That�s what blinds you when you are in the profit-making world. We need to see the people, not profit.�

    Any such changes would be too late for Atthili Padma and Shivalingam, a young couple in Andhra Pradesh�s cotton-farming village of Chennampalli.

    Padma, a 22-year-old mother of two, walked out of her house on Oct. 7 with her 18-month-old son and 4-year-old daughter, according to Maruthi Prasad, a superintendent at the police station in Shankarampet.

    Padma�s Death

    Instead of heading to her parents� house as she often did, she walked 2 kilometers in the opposite direction. She came to an old Hindu temple where villagers worship Lord Shiva, the god of destruction. Padma continued until she stood in front of a well once used to irrigate crops, her father-in-law, Pochaiah, says. There, with no one to dissuade her, she jumped into the well with her children.

    The day before she died, Padma had visited her parents after arguing with her husband over loans they couldn�t repay, according to Mangamma, the couple�s neighbor.

    Their marriage five years ago was arranged by their parents and the couple had become close and hadn�t fought before that day, Mangamma says. The loans totaled 20,000 rupees, Pochaiah says.

    Padma�s death is recorded as a microfinance-related suicide in the list by the Society for Elimination of Rural Poverty.

    �Sad Day for Microfinance�

    Police arrested Padma�s husband, Shivalingam, on Oct. 13 for allegedly abetting Padma�s suicide. They also alleged that he�d harassed her to provide money to marry him, which is illegal in India, according to Narayana, a constable at the Shankarampet police station.

    Police made two further arrests on Nov. 8: Share Microfin managers Sriram Raghavender, 27, and Polapalli Kumaraswami, 22, also for allegedly abetting the suicide, according to superintendent Prasad. The two managers and Shivalingam have been released on bail and are awaiting a court hearing, Prasad says.

    Advocates and investors such as Khosla say microfinance -- when it works correctly -- is the best way to give the rural poor a shot at better lives.

    The tragedies in India present the worst possible outcome, says Cashpor�s Gibbons, whose Nov. 15 speech opened a morning session of the annual Microfinance India Summit in New Delhi.

    �This is a sad day for microfinance,� said Gibbons, who has promoted the movement for the past two decades.

    �Often people asked me, �What are you doing here?�� he told the audience. �I�ve been always proud to say, �I�m doing microfinance.� Now, when people ask, I feel embarrassed. I feel like hiding somewhere.�





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  • paskal
    04-09 11:59 AM
    As is true with everything else it cannot be all gain.
    If we are to have CIR based GC advantage there will need to be H1B regulation. Thousands of h1Bs get filled in matter of hours. Many for consultants. How can that be right. Tough choices will need to be made and so be it.

    i'm not opposing reform. in fact i strongly feel that without reform this mess cannot be resolved. just like you do. but creating a new mess with LCA's that can't be handled in time? is that the answer? what about if you already have an LC approved? sound like you still need to duplicate the entire process for H1b renewal...does that make sense to you?
    or do you just want to support something, anything that might relieve the numbers?



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  • gc28262
    12-22 03:08 PM
    See me standing there in the video!
    http://www.dailypioneer.com/DisplayContent.aspx?ContentID=145268&URLName=Indian-Americans-ask-UN-to-declare-Pak-a-terrorist-state
    and
    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/12/india-free-men.html
    ****
    Indian Americans ask UN to declare Pak a terrorist state


    ************************

    SunnySurya,
    Weren't you the one who said India should gift kashmir to pakistan to solve all terrorrist activities and war ?

    How come you became a patriot and started caring about india all of a sudden ?

    Do you have any consistent opinion ?





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  • nogc_noproblem
    08-08 11:46 PM
    Good one!!!

    I thought the first blonde joke was really very funny - Helloooooooo :)



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  • wandmaker
    08-09 02:04 AM
    Persons staying on will receive as much SHIT (Special High
    Intensity Training) as possible. Management has
    always prided itself on the amount of SHIT it gives
    employees. Should you feel that you do not receive
    enough SHIT, please bring to the attention of your
    Supervisor. They have been trained to give you all
    the SHIT you can handle.

    Good one :D For many unskilled, it is the reality.





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  • waitnwatch
    08-05 03:11 PM
    Seems like a lot of emotions running high on this thread!

    Given that the USCIS director doesn't visit IV before writing memos on interfiling and porting PD's it's meaningless getting your blood pressure up.

    Rolling flood is definitely free to file his/her lawsuit whether folks here like it or not and SunnySurya has every right to join in.

    Wondering why folks from EB-3 want to just move up to EB-2 and port PD. Why not go for EB-1? After all that category is current.





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  • NKR
    08-06 03:48 PM
    No one can guarantee that. and that is the whole concept of "preference categories" . So now its ok for A to jump to EB2 and leapfrog everyone with his/her 2002 PD? Does 5 years of work have that much value? He/She would be ahead of 2003 EB2 filers that may have been working on degrees since 1999. That's ok by you? The faster movement of EB2 makes up for the years of education. I say, by all means BS+5 shoudl file EB2, I just don't agree with the porting. That PD was for an entirely different skill set and job. I know its the law. I still disagree. Can do that last I knew :-)

    Are you pascal with a different ID by any chance? :), I don�t know, I thought I saw pascal id above the previous post before the id changed to Ifwf





    Pineapple
    12-24 03:21 PM
    What a tiresome thread!!!

    Several years ago, people actually made an effort to make IV an organization representing all skilled workers, from all parts of the world. Now, immigration matters are totally irrelevant on the forums. Heck, forget about being an exclusively India focused forum, as this thread demonstrates, it is a venue to vent on matters even more narrowly focused - My religion, my sect, my opinion, my petty prejudices. If this is not irrelevant enough, we have enough threads on red dot-green dots to justify a whole separate category of forums :rolleyes:
    Anyway, it does a pretty good job of turning off people. I guarantee you this thread alone has contributed significantly in influencing many planning on attending the March rally to change their mind. It sure did mine.





    Macaca
    05-30 05:31 PM
    In China, Crime Is Kept Quiet, Except on TV
    The country remains safe by Western standards, but crime is more common and data are scarce (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304520804576349181022278452.html)
    By JAMES T. AREDDY | Wall Street Journal

    Last June, hours after her students went home, Sunny Shi, the principal at a kindergarten in Shanghai's Pudong district, was bludgeoned to death in her office. The suspect was another school employee.

    Officially, it was as if the murder never happened. Not a word was reported publicly by Shanghai police or local media. As talk circulated among parents, the school's administrators offered trauma counseling but requested their silence. "Now the case is under police investigation," the chief administrator said by email, and "we regret that we cannot provide any details."

    The treatment of this case was not unusual. All across China, authorities are thought to hush up episodes like Ms. Shi's killing, which explains in large part why no one knows how much crime occurs in the world's most populous nation. But few doubt that crime is increasing as economic growth divides rich from poor and China permits more personal mobility.

    "In the era of Mao, China was known as a virtually crime-free society," says Steven F. Messner, a University of Albany sociology professor who studies criminality. "To get rich is glorious" is the philosophy today, he added, "but there would be a darker side in terms of crime."

    China's national crime statistics show a sharp escalation in cases over the past decade, led in particular by non-violent larceny, like bicycle theft and purse snatching. But, as in the U.S., the official numbers also point to steep declines in violent crime, with the murder rate dropping by half between 2000 and 2009.

    Experts consider China's crime statistics both problematic and politicized. They also generally agree that the country remains safe by Western standards. Dark streets don't imply danger here.

    Evidence abounds, however, that the Communist Party leadership's ideal of a "harmonious society" remains a target, not the reality. In China's growing cities, aluminum bars over windows and doors make most apartments resemble jails. Homeowners are snapping up security devices like cameras and alarms.

    Anxious about kidnapping, China's newly wealthy often drive bullet-proof Land Rovers and hire kung fu masters from Shaolin Temple as security agents.

    Television contributes a fear factor with real-crime shows modeled on "America's Most Wanted" and "Cops." China Central Television says its law-and-order channel grabs more viewers than its sports stations. Every day, CCTV's one-hour documentary "Legal Report" follows detectives as they crack sensational abduction, extortion and robbery cases.

    Its coverage of a spate of apparently random attacks on seven women this year in Hebei province, for instance, featured the nighttime capture of 23-year-old Zhang Yunshuai. His foldable knife decorated with a butterfly was shown as evidence. He was led to a subsequent interview wearing a reflective orange prison vest and cuffed at the wrists and ankles, where he tilted his shaved head and muttered, "because women break my heart."

    Shorter installments drew on security cameras that captured a thief shielding his pilfering hand beneath a menu in a crowded Beijing restaurant and thugs casing hotel lobbies for handbags.

    On these true-life crime shows, "the man" consistently finds his perp. A popular notion holds that the censors permit these shows about China's criminal underworld because they allow the leadership to demonstrate how the pervasive surveillance of the government equates to swift justice.

    Canadian Debra O'Brien got an up-close look at China's criminal justice system after her 22-year-old daughter Diana was stabbed to death three years ago in Shanghai, a bombshell case just weeks before the start of the 2008 Olympics. Authorities quickly won a confession from Chen Jun, a penniless 18-year-old migrant from rural Anhui province. Mr. Chen admitted he struggled with the aspiring model during his bungled attempt to burgle her apartment, located steps from a tea shop that recently fired him.

    Ms. O'Brien left impressed. She received extensive briefings by senior police and personal copies of forensic photos. The judge even sought her opinion about a death sentence for Mr. Chen. She had a face-to-face with the apologetic killer.

    "It was all shocking and horrific, but everything was done really respectfully and transparently," Ms. O'Brien said by telephone. "You don't feel there is a lot of ego going on. People are doing their jobs."

    But the public wasn't offered many details. Ms. O'Brien herself admits she isn't sure of what happened to Mr. Chen but believes he became eligible for release two months ago. Mr. Chen's lawyer says he is serving life.

    Pi Yijun, a professor of criminal justice at China University of Political Science and Law in Beijing, says that he sees crime rising and getting more violent, which he attributes to anger and frustration among society's have-nots. "The accepted mindset seems, 'fists are more powerful than reason,'" he said.

    But in a rare 2004 survey of crime victimization, centered on the northern city Tianjin, the University of Albany's Mr. Messner found that few people were touched personally by crimes worse than a stolen bicycle. He credits traditional features of Chinese society. "You still have a much more communitarian orientation than the extreme individualism you see in the U.S.," he said.



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